[brlug-newbies] [OT] Religion, Politics and Computer Operating Systems: Was: Re: [CCCC-General] Bad Vista.
Tim Fournet
tfournet at tfour.net
Mon Apr 9 13:15:29 CDT 2007
Ed,
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your call for
apologies. I read Will's post below and it does not seem to carry any
inflammatory remarks to warrant an apology. His points are valid, and
serve as a warning to MS users who want to upgrade to Vista.
I myself bought a laptop pre-loaded with Vista last weekend. Also, I've
attempted (unsuccessfully) to load Vista onto workstations that were
previously running Windows XP, and I have seen first-hand the faults in
Vista. The user interface is, as described, very intrusive and drivers
are very much a problem. Will's recommendation to avoid upgrading a
machine to Vista is very much seconded by myself, and has been repeated
by many news articles and recommendations by other technical
professionals. Will's comments are based on facts published by the tech
industry and he's urging users to be cautious about upgrading to a new
operating system, and I think that has to be respected.
I support both Linux and Windows systems in my job. I'm an MCSE and I
run servers as well as help end-users every day. I am the highest-level
IT support for several large companies, and I've warned them all to not
purchase Windows Vista systems for at least 6-12 months. The reason is
that many things are not ready. There are known problems with many core
applications, VPN software, mobile wireless devices, and other hardware.
There are issues with the TCP/IP stack that have required reboots to
resolve. There are instability problems. I've seen it first-hand.
Hopefully these problems will be fixed in the future, but my opinion is
that most people should wait before adopting Vista.
I acknowledge that Will have made previous posts to CCCC that may have
rubbed some people the wrong way--I don't know, I don't subscribe to
their lists--but this one was valid and I don't think he needs to
apologize for it. The only fault I see in his post is where he suggested
that Linux installations may not have the same problems as Vista
installations. If that's off-topic in the "CCCC-General" list, then I
guess he should apologize for that bit.
-Tim
EdsLinuxBox wrote:
> Ladies and gentlemen of the Clickers General Discussion List and the
> Management and Board of Directors of the Cajun Clickers Computer Club, on
> behalf of the Linux Special Interest Group and Joe Zachary and I, allow me to
> apologize for Will Hill's comments below and for many of his past postings to
> this list. Please know that his position does not reflect that of the Linux
> SIG, nor of Joe or I. Will is very passionate with regard to Linux and Free
> and Open Source Software (FOSS) and sometimes his passion overrides his good
> judgment. This is another example of that occurance. After seeing his posting
> from yesterday evening and the responses from Roger and Carolyn, I sent Will
> the following e-mail. I have yet to receive a reply from him and hope that
> that is because he has yet to see my e-mail. Here is what I sent to him in
> total:
>
> "Will,
>
> I have been expecting to see this kind of e-mail for quite some time now, but
> was hoping that maybe it would never come or that the negative postings would
> cease, but alas, it has and unfortunately, I have to agree with both Roger
> and Carolyn and I am sure that there are many others that are subscribed to
> the Clicker's General list that feel exactly the same way. I personally hate
> politics and am by no means a fan of Microsoft, but if people are happy with
> using Windows and the software that Microsoft supports, who am I to bash them
> for their decision. This posting about Vista, and others that you have made
> in the past, is very much like an evangelical Christian standing out in front
> of a Catholic Church on Saturday evening or Sunday morning telling all of
> parishners that they are going to hell because they don't believe the way
> that the evangelical does. It never fosters good will and I doubt that any
> are ever converted using that tactic, just as few of the Clicker's members
> will be converted using yours.
>
> Is it appropriate to make such posts to the Clicker's general list? No, in my
> opinion it is not. No more so than posting a pro Vista message would be to
> the LInux SIG list or for that matter to the BRLUG lists. Is it appropriate
> to post a pro FOSS message in response to a message like "I want to watch a
> PowerPoint presentation but don't own a copy of MS Office." Sure that is
> appropriate and may even eventually move that person from Windows to Linux.
>
> I have invested a HUGH amount of time and a not so insignificant amount of my
> own money in trying to make this Linux SIG a success, as have a number of
> other people. I have volunteered to be on the radio show and have been a
> regular at the monthly instructors meetings. I have also gone to great
> lengths to build bridges between us and the club management and these efforts
> are starting to pay substantial dividends, but then we have an anti-Microsoft
> posting that undermines all of those efforts and makes the dollars spent seem
> to be in vein.
>
> I have no ax to grind or agenda other than to help those who are a wanting
> help to use and enjoy Linux the way that I do. I am not looking to save the
> computing world, I know that I won't make any money doing this, and genuinely
> don't care who gets the credit for whatever success the SIG may enjoy in the
> future, but I don't want the SIG to be any more of an uphill battle for me
> than it already is. I really don't need to do this. I have a good job. I
> already know how to do everything that I want to do with Linux. I just bought
> a new bike that I would love to be riding more but I have commitments with
> the SIG that take first priority. In fact, I will be missing an all day bike
> event this coming Saturday that I would love to attend and show off the new
> bike but because I have committed to do the Linux Day Open House, I won't be
> able to go. I hope that this commitment has not been made in vein.
>
> I ask that you post a public apology for the comments that you made and that
> you refreign from making any more in the future to the General List. If you
> wish to make such comments, then I ask that you limit them to the Linux SIG
> list and to the BRLUG political list. Having said that, I would prefer that
> all negative postings be eliminated from the Linux SIG list. If it is not
> positive, it has no place there, but then I am also not a list moderator.
>
> I am coping both Joe and Roger on this e-mail. You are free to include any or
> all of this e-mail in your apology to the General List membership as you may
> feel is appropriate.
>
> I look forward to seeing your very soon reply.
>
> Ed Richards"
>
> Please don't allow Will's comments to tarnish what has been accomplished by
> the Linux Desktop SIG to date and, if you were planning on attending the Open
> House this coming Saturday, please do so. If you wern't planning on
> attending, the let me extend that invitation to you. We will be replaying the
> slide presentation entitled "Linux: The Alternate Desktop" at 9AM, 11AM and 1
> PM in Lecture Room 1. Following the slide presentation, you will have the
> opportunity to experience Linux first hand in the Computer Lab. There will be
> coaches available to answer questions and assist you in any way that you may
> need. I promise that there will be NO Microsoft bashing, at least not from
> me.
>
> Thanks for reading this rather lengthy post and for allowing me to offer this
> apology.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ed Richards
> CCCC Linux Desktop Special Interest Group
>
> On 04/08/2007 08:00 pm, Roger Carlyle wrote:
>
>> Wow! Microsoft hating never stops. I'm personally offended at the amount
>> of negative Microsoft email traffic on our CCCC list has.
>> I purposely avoid any negative Linux messages, and there is plenty to
>> spread around if a person wanted to, but it would serve no useful purpose
>> for our club.
>> If you like a particular product, that's fine. Shout it to the rooftops.
>> But stop the blasting of one OS product in an effort to make another OS
>> product look good. That's called negative salesmanship --- where you spend
>> an extraordinary amount of time running down a competitors product to make
>> yours look good. Most of the time it backfires.
>> Our club is made up of 98%+ Microsoft Windows users. Every time an email
>> is sent out blasting Microsoft and promoting Linux, you are insulting those
>> 98% CCCC members who are happy with their Microsoft product. Linux is fine
>> if that is what you want to use. Our club has gone out of the way to
>> provide support to the Linux group. Insulting emails about Microsoft
>> products is not the way continue to receive that support. Don't forget
>> that those 98% CCCC Windows users pay 98% of the bills for the CCCC
>> building. Just a fact that should not be forgotten.
>>
>> I don't want to start a Microsoft / Linux war. It would be a waste of time.
>> So how about a little respect for the other side that are happy with the
>> Microsoft OS they are using.
>> We all have the internet and can access and read all the same good/bad
>> vista/Linux stuff that is floating around. We don't need it shoved in our
>> faces.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: general-bounces at lists.clickers.org
>> [mailto:general-bounces at lists.clickers.org] On Behalf Of willhill
>> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 1:43 PM
>> To: General Discussion List
>> Subject: [CCCC-General] Bad Vista.
>>
>> The overwhelming answer to that question is no. I've read estimates that
>> Vista will run well on 6% of the world's existing desktop computers. The
>> chances of a upgrade working are low, even if you think your computer is up
>> to spec. Finally, if you get passed buggy drivers and other flaws, the
>> interface is supposed to be foreign, inefficient, intrusive and
>> restrictive.
>>
>> Security and privacy issues are just the same as they always were, despite
>> many wild claims of improvement. All of that will be there if you buy a
>> new
>>
>> computer, but you have a better chance of the thing working in a year or
>> so.
>>
>> The lawsuit has a lot of merit. The software was not ready for those
>> machines
>> and may never be. It was irresponsible of vendors and Microsoft to promise
>> drivers from other companies like Nvidia that may never be written. Also,
>> their versioning and intentional crippling of software is deceptive. A lot
>> of people expecting a "wow" from their "express upgrade" are rightly going
>> to
>> feel let down.
>>
>> In the mean time, everyone is welcome to a free and easy software upgrade
>> at
>>
>> the Linux Desktop SIG. Free software desktops have come a long way in the
>> six years Microsoft has taken to make Vista. Ease of use, features and
>> programs have been added without sacrificing performance, security or
>> privacy. Next weekend, on the 14th, the Desktop SIG will be having an Open
>> House where you can see and try it out for yourself.
>>
>> Happy Easter, everyone!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Cajun Clickers Computer Club - http://www.clickers.org
>> - Postings prior to March 24, 2006 are located at:
>> http://lists.clickers.org/oldGeneral/ - Online Newsletter:
>> http://lists.clickers.org/newsletter
>> - Online newsletter & mailing list logon info:
>> http://www.clickers.org/newsMailing.aspx - Cajun Clickers Calendar:
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>
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