[brlug-newbies] [SPAM] Re[2]: [OT] Religion, Politics and Computer Operating Systems: Was: Re: [CCCC-General] Bad Vista.

Tue Apr 10 05:22:46 CDT 2007

Alas, I do know with certainty that this was a result of a history of
such emails. The email that was shown was just a recent example. Taken
in that context, this type of "style" is abrasive. Heck, I find it
abrasive when people do this on the LUG list, and we are dedicated to
Linux.

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Monday, April 9, 2007, 1:15:29 PM, you wrote:

> Ed,
> I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your call for 
> apologies. I read Will's post below and it does not seem to carry any 
> inflammatory remarks to warrant an apology. His points are valid, and 
> serve as a warning to MS users who want to upgrade to Vista.

> I myself bought a laptop pre-loaded with Vista last weekend. Also, I've
> attempted (unsuccessfully) to load Vista onto workstations that were 
> previously running Windows XP, and I have seen first-hand the faults in
> Vista. The user interface is, as described, very intrusive and drivers
> are very much a problem. Will's recommendation to avoid upgrading a 
> machine to Vista is very much seconded by myself, and has been repeated
> by many news articles and recommendations by other technical 
> professionals. Will's comments are based on facts published by the tech
> industry and he's urging users to be cautious about upgrading to a new
> operating system, and I think that has to be respected.

> I support both Linux and Windows systems in my job. I'm an MCSE and I 
> run servers as well as help end-users every day. I am the highest-level
> IT support for several large companies, and I've warned them all to not
> purchase Windows Vista systems for at least 6-12 months. The reason is
> that many things are not ready. There are known problems with many core
> applications, VPN software, mobile wireless devices, and other hardware.
> There are issues with the TCP/IP stack that have required reboots to 
> resolve. There are instability problems. I've seen it first-hand. 
> Hopefully these problems will be fixed in the future, but my opinion is
> that most people should wait before adopting Vista.

> I acknowledge that Will have made previous posts to CCCC that may have
> rubbed some people the wrong way--I don't know, I don't subscribe to 
> their lists--but this one was valid and I don't think he needs to 
> apologize for it. The only fault I see in his post is where he suggested
> that Linux installations may not have the same problems as Vista 
> installations. If that's off-topic in the "CCCC-General" list, then I 
> guess he should apologize for that bit.

> -Tim

> EdsLinuxBox wrote:
>> Ladies and gentlemen of the Clickers General Discussion List and the 
>> Management and Board of Directors of the Cajun Clickers Computer Club, on 
>> behalf of the Linux Special Interest Group and Joe Zachary and I, allow me to 
>> apologize for Will Hill's comments below and for many of his past postings to 
>> this list. Please know that his position does not reflect that of the Linux 
>> SIG, nor of Joe or I. Will is very passionate with regard to Linux and Free 
>> and Open Source Software (FOSS) and sometimes his passion overrides his good 
>> judgment. This is another example of that occurance. After seeing his posting 
>> from yesterday evening and the responses from Roger and Carolyn, I sent Will 
>> the following e-mail. I have yet to receive a reply from him and hope that 
>> that is because he has yet to see my e-mail. Here is what I sent to him in 
>> total: 
>>
>> "Will, 
>>
>> I have been expecting to see this kind of e-mail for quite some time now, but 
>> was hoping that maybe it would never come or that the negative postings would 
>> cease, but alas, it has and unfortunately, I have to agree with both Roger 
>> and Carolyn and I am sure that there are many others that are subscribed to 
>> the Clicker's General list that feel exactly the same way. I personally hate 
>> politics and am by no means a fan of Microsoft, but if people are happy with 
>> using Windows and the software that Microsoft supports, who am I to bash them 
>> for their decision. This posting about Vista, and others that you have made 
>> in the past, is very much like an evangelical Christian standing out in front 
>> of a Catholic Church on Saturday evening or Sunday morning telling all of 
>> parishners that they are going to hell because they don't believe the way 
>> that the evangelical does. It never fosters good will and I doubt that any 
>> are ever converted using that tactic, just as few of the Clicker's members 
>> will be converted using yours. 
>>
>> Is it appropriate to make such posts to the Clicker's general list? No, in my 
>> opinion it is not. No more so than posting a pro Vista message would be to 
>> the LInux SIG list or for that matter to the BRLUG lists. Is it appropriate 
>> to post a pro FOSS message in response to a message like "I want to watch a 
>> PowerPoint presentation but don't own a copy of MS Office." Sure that is 
>> appropriate and may even eventually move that person from Windows to Linux. 
>>
>> I have invested a HUGH amount of time and a not so insignificant amount of my 
>> own money in trying to make this Linux SIG a success, as have a number of 
>> other people. I have volunteered to be on the radio show and have been a 
>> regular at the monthly instructors meetings. I have also gone to great 
>> lengths to build bridges between us and the club management and these efforts 
>> are starting to pay substantial dividends, but then we have an anti-Microsoft 
>> posting that undermines all of those efforts and makes the dollars spent seem 
>> to be in vein. 
>>
>> I have no ax to grind or agenda other than to help those who are a wanting 
>> help to use and enjoy Linux the way that I do. I am not looking to save the 
>> computing world, I know that I won't make any money doing this, and genuinely 
>> don't care who gets the credit for whatever success the SIG may enjoy in the 
>> future, but I don't want the SIG to be any more of an uphill battle for me 
>> than it already is. I really don't need to do this. I have a good job. I 
>> already know how to do everything that I want to do with Linux. I just bought 
>> a new bike that I would love to be riding more but I have commitments with 
>> the SIG that take first priority. In fact, I will be missing an all day bike 
>> event this coming Saturday that I would love to attend and show off the new 
>> bike but because I have committed to do the Linux Day Open House, I won't be 
>> able to go. I hope that this commitment has not been made in vein. 
>>
>> I ask that you post a public apology for the comments that you made and that 
>> you refreign from making any more in the future to the General List. If you 
>> wish to make such comments, then I ask that you limit them to the Linux SIG 
>> list and to the BRLUG political list. Having said that, I would prefer that 
>> all negative postings be eliminated from the Linux SIG list. If it is not 
>> positive, it has no place there, but then I am also not a list moderator. 
>>
>> I am coping both Joe and Roger on this e-mail. You are free to include any or 
>> all of this e-mail in your apology to the General List membership as you may 
>> feel is appropriate. 
>>
>> I look forward to seeing your very soon reply. 
>>
>> Ed Richards"
>>
>> Please don't allow Will's comments to tarnish what has been accomplished by 
>> the Linux Desktop SIG to date and, if you were planning on attending the Open 
>> House this coming Saturday, please do so.  If you wern't planning on 
>> attending, the let me extend that invitation to you. We will be replaying the 
>> slide presentation entitled "Linux: The Alternate Desktop" at 9AM, 11AM and 1 
>> PM in Lecture Room 1. Following the slide presentation, you will have the 
>> opportunity to experience Linux first hand in the Computer Lab. There will be 
>> coaches available to answer questions and assist you in any way that you may 
>> need. I promise that there will be NO Microsoft bashing, at least not from 
>> me. 
>>
>> Thanks for reading this rather lengthy post and for allowing me to offer this 
>> apology. 
>>
>> Sincerely, 
>>
>> Ed Richards
>> CCCC Linux Desktop Special Interest Group
>>
>> On 04/08/2007 08:00 pm, Roger Carlyle wrote:
>>   
>>> Wow!  Microsoft hating never stops.  I'm personally offended at the amount
>>> of negative Microsoft email traffic on our CCCC list has.
>>> I purposely avoid any negative Linux messages, and there is plenty to
>>> spread around if a person wanted to, but it would serve no useful purpose
>>> for our club.
>>> If you like a particular product, that's fine.  Shout it to the rooftops.
>>> But stop the blasting of one OS product in an effort to make another OS
>>> product look good.  That's called negative salesmanship --- where you spend
>>> an extraordinary amount of time running down a competitors product to make
>>> yours look good.  Most of the time it backfires.
>>> Our club is made up of 98%+ Microsoft Windows users.  Every time an email
>>> is sent out blasting Microsoft and promoting Linux, you are insulting those
>>> 98% CCCC members who are happy with their Microsoft product. Linux is fine
>>> if that is what you want to use.  Our club has gone out of the way to
>>> provide support to the Linux group.  Insulting emails about Microsoft
>>> products is not the way continue to receive that support.  Don't forget
>>> that those 98% CCCC Windows users pay 98% of the bills for the CCCC
>>> building.  Just a fact that should not be forgotten.
>>>
>>> I don't want to start a Microsoft / Linux war. It would be a waste of time.
>>> So how about a little respect for the other side that are happy with the
>>> Microsoft OS they are using.
>>> We all have the internet and can access and read all the same good/bad
>>> vista/Linux stuff that is floating around.  We don't need it shoved in our
>>> faces.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: general-bounces at lists.clickers.org
>>> [mailto:general-bounces at lists.clickers.org] On Behalf Of willhill
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 1:43 PM
>>> To: General Discussion List
>>> Subject: [CCCC-General] Bad Vista.
>>>
>>> The overwhelming answer to that question is no.  I've read estimates that
>>> Vista will run well on 6% of the world's existing desktop computers.  The
>>> chances of a upgrade working are low, even if you think your computer is up
>>> to spec.  Finally, if you get passed buggy drivers and other flaws, the
>>> interface is supposed to be foreign, inefficient, intrusive and
>>> restrictive.
>>>
>>> Security and privacy issues are just the same as they always were, despite
>>> many wild claims of improvement.  All of that will be there if you buy a
>>> new
>>>
>>> computer, but you have a better chance of the thing working in a year or
>>> so.
>>>
>>> The lawsuit has a lot of merit.  The software was not ready for those
>>> machines
>>> and may never be.  It was irresponsible of vendors and Microsoft to promise
>>> drivers from other companies like Nvidia that may never be written.  Also,
>>> their versioning and intentional crippling of software is deceptive.  A lot
>>> of people expecting a "wow" from their "express upgrade" are rightly going
>>> to
>>> feel let down.
>>>
>>> In the mean time, everyone is welcome to a free and easy software upgrade
>>> at
>>>
>>> the Linux Desktop SIG.  Free software desktops have come a long way in the
>>> six years Microsoft has taken to make Vista.  Ease of use, features and
>>> programs have been added without sacrificing performance, security or
>>> privacy.  Next weekend, on the 14th, the Desktop SIG will be having an Open
>>> House where you can see and try it out for yourself.
>>>
>>> Happy Easter, everyone!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://lists.clickers.org/oldGeneral/
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Cajun Clickers Computer Club - http://www.clickers.org
>>> - Postings prior to March 24, 2006 are located at:
>>> http://lists.clickers.org/oldGeneral/ - Online Newsletter: 
>>> http://lists.clickers.org/newsletter
>>> - Online newsletter &amp; mailing list logon info:
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>>
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