[brlug-poly] thanks

[Eric G Ortego]

On 10/24/05, Andrew Baudouin <andrewmb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>  Not an opinion. If you had read my reply to Will you would have realized
> it. In 1998 I had a 300Mhz PII Thinkpad running Windows 98 which could
> suspend and resume with opening and closing of the lid. Suse 6.2/Whatever
> 2.2 kernel I was running side-by-side with it barfed. My statement was
> true.
>

But Will was discussing XP. XP wasn't available in 1998. I didn't take your,
"Have you even tried XP", to be a precursor for de-validating his XP
usefulness argument with data from your experience with windows 98 vs
Suse1998.

Historically, Windows supports hardware and power management better than
> Linux distributions do.
>

Historically Windows spends less up time. I haven't had any troubles with
power management in linux at least since kernel 2.4.

I can come up with anecdotal evidence RIGHT NOW (TM) that current Linux
> distros suck arse at hardware support and power management, but that is what
> it is...anecdotal.
>

hardware support? I want to see you run windows xp naively on a powerbook
then Ill concede that your anecdotal evidence of "suck arse hardware
support" could have credibility. How about XP on a gumstix? That should be
easy.
I'd be interested in seeing your "suck arse" power management evidence.


> I wouldn't be surprised if 100% of those issues were human related
> (certain drivers for hardware not playing nice). My IBM Thinkpad w/533E
> Celeron works just dandy suspending and resuming under Windows 2000.
>

Cool, my ppc-linux 800mhz shuts down in under 3 seconds, resumes in under 7.

 I won't make an argument about present day support for Linux suspending and
> resuming...it's an historical one.
>

Yea I know.


>  I wasn't the one making said generalizations.
>

I wasn't suggesting that you were.

 He's not talking about that issue. Read the message. Besides, how is that a
> problem? Different profiles have different application icon settings.
>

My mistake, one of my annoyances not Will's. Its a problem because data can
be lost, its not just the icons positions that can get overwritten.


> Not really. It's a matter of standardizing on toolkits.
>

What? Ok then maybe that says something about the opensource toolkits.
Sheesh, what toolkit is 7zip written with? I like the windows version alot.

All of those use GTK (windows port is available).
>

Alot of apps are not based on gtk, or qt.
I don't think that the windows version of openoffice uses gtk but I could be
wrong.

The toolkits handle all of the underlying syscalls.
>

Which can make them appealing to application developers willing to work with
the toolkits and their accompanying licensing policy.

User applications shouldn't make a habit of writing to the syslog anyway.
>

local6 nuff said
And Windows applications have a habit of no logging at all.


> Again, you aren't reading. He was saying he trusts the repositoires of
> Debian and doesn't trust sourceforge.net <http://sourceforge.net> win32
> builds of free software.
>

I did read that, but I didn't think that you were so dense.
Nothing in debian can go in to the debian archives without a trusted key in
the debian keyring. They are signed on upload by a member of the debian
project. That member has to be connected in a web of trust with the entire
rest of the project. Someone is accountable for the build.

Sourceforge is just a public anonymous repository. Find out who built what
if you can, I wouldn't trust it over a project like debian either.


> "It would cost me hundreds of dollars to duplicate what Debian
> provides at no cost." is a lie.
>

Ah, well maybe it would. You don't know how *he* would go about doing that.
It might not cost you hundreds of dollars. But I find it a bit harsh to call
him a lyer for that.

 Real and Flash are free. WMP/Winamp is a free replacement for xmms, xine,
> and noatun. You can get XP Home for under a hundred dollars and all of the
> rest for free.
>
> It is a lie.
>

Realplayer is nice, I even got them to build me a ppc-linux version of it.
Flash doesn't work for me on linux(so it sucks by default), WMP sucks and
winamp is pretty damn nice but is the only one that is truly free.

Debian provides nothing.
> > >
> >
> > Debian provides package management tools. Pretty good ones.
> >
>
> Way to quote edited parts of my sentence. Mature.
>

Well if you want to start schoolyarding, that was an entire sentence of
yours that I quoted.
Excuse the truncation of the rest if the paragraph which I wasn't responding
to.


> WMP does...and that destroys your argument.
>
WMP isn't free...<tinfoil hat>and I wouldn't trust it. *beedy eyes*</tinfoil
hat>

Besides, winamp is a free piece of software, and I was arguing that end. He
> was saying he has to pay hundreds of dollars to get equivalent versions of
> noatun, xmms, and xine.
>

I suspect the cost of XP is a large part of that hundreds of dollars.
XP Home full version is around $200 is it not?


>  Then you would lose.
>

HA, then lets find 2 mawmaw's without computer usage experience and
experiment.


> No generalization would convince anyone to switch from Windows.
>

Since it is often generalized, Freedom might.


> > I would not, because there is nothing ethical about doing everything
> > legally possible to make sure everyone buys *only my* widgets. What you
> > describe sounds allot like Communism, and a bit like the essence of
> > Microsoft. In a free market I should do everything legally and ethically
> > possible to try to convince you that you want to buy my widget and make sure
> > you know if you have bought the widget which I sell. To suggest that I(or my
> > company) should do everything legally & ethically possible to eliminate the
> > choice of which widget everyone can buy sounds socialist.
> >
>
> There sure is. Businesses everywhere do it all of the time.
>

Just because business do it doesn't mean that its ethical especially in a
free market economy.

Undercutting price and adding value is one way.
>

One way of what, eliminating choice? Read your own question.

"WOuld you not do everything legally and ethically possible to make sure
everyone buys your and ONLY YOUR widgets?"

By doing everything possible(within your criteria) to make sure everyone
buys ONLY my widget I am eliminating choice for everybody. Customers are
left with 1 choice, buy my widget or no widget. By saying this your agreeing
with RMS's view on the GPL. After all he is just doing everything legally &
ethically possible to make sure everyone gets only HIS widget. Choice is
great... percisely why I choose gentoo as my linux widget.

Making sure your support of widgets is superior is another way.
>

Another way to have a potentially more atractive widget, yes.

How is that communist?
>

Competing isn't commanding is.

Microsoft beat Unix and high-dollar software vendors by undercutting price.
>

Very well, then they ramped up licensing costs as evident with the change of
TS CAL from 2000 Server to 2003 Server. And they are a monopoly. A free
market implies competition.

They are trying to beat Linux right now by adding value and usabillity. They
> are losing on price and Linux is steadily gaining, IMO.
>

Oddly enough I think they can still beat linux on price. That is i they pick
the proper time and have sufficient .... yea the proper time is all.

Forcing everyone to share and freely give away all of the software they
> write is what is communist.
>

I can agree that forcing everyone to is. But everyone choosing to isn't.


> Yet common arguments that OSS is better due to number of bugs alone
> doesn't hold water.
>

I can agree partly. Public bug disclosure is important IMO. Do you trust
company X to disclose widget vulnerabilities? Its a fact that people don't
write perfect software. It doesn't matter if its Microsoft, SUN, or Linus.


>
> However, that's at least considering that openssh is a requirement to do
> work, which it isn't.
>

It is for me. That or I would need one hell of a KVM and lots of very long
cables.
Maybe consider that a mouse is a requirement to do work with windows, which
it isn't.


> omgwtfbbq?
>

Oh my gawd want to find big beautiful queen?
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